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Comments on: 244 | Katie Elliott on Metaphysics, Chance, and Time https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/ Preposterous Universe Fri, 27 Mar 2026 17:41:18 +0000 hourly 1 By: Not-Very-Mini-Heap & The Subscription Problem - Daily Nous https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3251 Tue, 19 Sep 2023 11:19:34 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3251 […] What can metaphysics do? — physicist Sean Carroll in conversation with philosopher Katie Elliott (Brandeis) […]

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By: John F. Carr https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3215 Thu, 10 Aug 2023 22:24:38 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3215 I was disappointed in middle school when I picked up a book that promised to tell me what would happen if an irresistable force met an immovable object. The book said the hypothetical was impossible. It was not a paradox. There was no answer.

I feel like some of the thought experiments are impossible in ways that are essential and not merely the result of informal formulation of something that could be pinned down.

On counterfactuals and causality, the universe doesn’t work in a way that allows you to only change the aim of a rock so it doesn’t hit a window. If you hold all else including the past constant then the change in the rock’s position or momentum is discontinuous. Our world conserves momentum and doesn’t allow rocks to teleport.

Back in the 1990s a meteorologist told me about a problem with weather models. Scientists would feed observations into the computer and say “go”. The model would forecast waves rippling out from observation points. Discrete, imprecise observations represent an impossible state. The waves were a result of the model relaxing from a physically impossible configuration to a physically possible configuration.

If you start teleporting rocks or winking the window out of existence for a moment you have broken the world like the bad observations broke the weather model.

If you define the laws of nature as “the entire future state of the universe” you run into a cousin of the the halting problem and Gödel’s incompleteness theorem. An arbitrarily complex system can not contain a complete model of itself. If there is not a simpler representation than “the entire future state is this”, laws of nature do not exist.

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By: Howard Gary https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3189 Sat, 29 Jul 2023 07:48:56 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3189 One important thing about Newcomb’s paradox is that in most versions the premises are intentionally left somewhat ambiguous. it’s never clearly stated how the oracle gets the information he needs to make his predictions, or exactly how accurate those predictions are. So, in a very general sense, whether you’re a one-boxer or a two-boxer more or less comes down to your belief that there are laws that govern the Universe, and that those laws are predictable. If you’re a one-boxer you most likely believe such laws exist and they are predictable. On the other hand, if you’re a two-boxer, you most likely believe that no such laws exist, or even if they do exist there not predictable. Great paradox on so many different levels!

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By: Jose Castro https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3188 Sat, 29 Jul 2023 06:45:44 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3188 Loved the playful tone of this dialogue. Kattie Elliot definitely scored some points with “Is he a friend of yours?” and “The saddest thing I’ve ever heard.” So many nuggets of information, so many topics, and so many comments! I’ll just mention two:

1. Stochastic processes definitely are epistemic, are they also real? that’s a question beyond our capacity to figure out, in my humble opinion. To me, a stochastic process is one that under exactly the same state may evolve to more than one other possible subsequent state, so it depends on what we define the state to be. If we are presentists and the state is “The Present”, then it may be that it’s stochastic, but if we are eternalists then it’s impossible: the state is all spacetime (including past, present, and future) and this state uniquely identifies the position of each point. Now is that distinction useful? probably not, :D.

2. Definitely a one-boxer. the two boxers ignore the information that we know that the genie knows my decision in advance. If we accept this premise then the implication goes from my action to the genie’s decision, and not temporarily (remember, he knows the future).

I have to select the action that maximizes the money the genie will give me.

This problem reminds me A LOT of medieval scholastic philosophers talking about predestination, god’s omniscience (the genie), and free will. I hope I’m not breaking the rules, but for anyone interested, I would very highly recommend Peter Adamson’s podcast, History of Philosophy without any gaps. episode 276: “Back to the Future: Foreknowledge and Predestination.” You’ll be surprised at how modern scholastic philosophers sound, and how their concepts are almost on a one-to-one mapping with the modern terminology.

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By: Chris Stephens https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3186 Thu, 27 Jul 2023 21:07:04 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3186 Re: Newcomb’s paradox. I was slightly surprised that they seemed to discuss the version where everyone who picks one box is a millionaire and everyone who picks two boxes gets only $1,000. I wonder if Carroll would still be a one boxer if the case were described like this: suppose there is no “magic”. I’m the predictor, and I’m just good at reading people. I have to put the million or not in the opaque box after I meet you but before you choose. Suppose I’m right only 99% of the time. So, you watch me play the game with 1,000 other people and 99% of those who choose one box get million (but 1% get nothing) and 99% of those that choose both get only 1,000 (but 1% get 1 million plus a thousand).
Assume there’s no backwards causality, no time travel, nothing “magical”. When it is your time to choose, the million is either in the box or not. Your choice doesn’t cause, in any way, whether the money appears in the box.

Then, the puzzle is that the Principle of max. utility (based just on “evidence”) says to pick the one box: assuming your utility goes up in a typical way with money, you maximize your expected utility by going for one box.
However, the principle of dominance says to pick both boxes. Dominance seems to apply because the money is already in the opaque box (or not) and so you’ll pick up the extra 1K either way. So two boxing seems to dominate one boxing in the decision theoretic sense.

Here’s a variation. Suppose the back of the opaque box is transparent. I’m Sean Carroll’s friend. I can see whether the million is in the opaque box or not, just before Sean chooses. Either way, I’m going to tell him to take both boxes! Otherwise, he’s turning down an extra 1K.

So, it looks like one should use the Principle of Maximizing “Causal” expected utilities – in that case, you can reconcile dominance with rational way to make decisions.

So, I’m with Katie. In this case, the puzzle is set up to reward irrationality. But the rational thing to do is to take both boxes.

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By: Howard Gary https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3184 Thu, 27 Jul 2023 01:43:46 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3184 Newcomb’s paradox, in the most general sense, involves questions of free will, determinism, choice, probability and rationality with no clear solution. But putting aside the philosophy and metaphysics it is possible to reformulate it into a purely mathematical problem, with an unambiguous solution, as explained in the video posted below:

‘Newcomb’s paradox| Famous Math Problems| NJ Wildberger’ (2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR5GYeZkgvY

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By: Philip Koop https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3183 Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:51:39 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3183 That said, in my opinion Katie is smuggling in induction via the back door. She says that it is logically impossible for a being to predict or cause her choice, and therefore it would be irrational to choose one box. But why does she think it is “logically” impossible? What premises has she started with and what is her chain of reasoning? I don’t believe it is really logic at all; I think it is experience: she has met many beings who would like to predict or cause her actions but none who could actually do so, and therefore she believes it is impossible. So she is really just prioritizing one set of empirical observations over another.

I guess this observation must have been made a million times in this debate! Sorry, but I haven’t read the literature.

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By: Philip Koop https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3182 Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:29:27 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3182 I love love love that you are a 1-boxer and Katie is a 2-boxer because it personifies the observation you made at the beginning: that science is metaphysics with a restricted epistemology. Or, if you prefer the ahistorical perspective, that metaphysics is a continuation of science by other epistemologies.

How delightful! You should have Michael Strevens on your podcast. I wonder whether he is a 2-boxer?

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By: Philip Koop https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3181 Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:34:28 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3181 So why is an electron (say) not an “extended symbol” according to Elliott’s definition? I googled it but did not find a satisfactory answer.

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By: Rob https://preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/24/244-katie-elliott-on-metaphysics-chance-and-time/comment-page-1/#comment-3180 Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:31:49 +0000 https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/?p=5280#comment-3180 This was one of my favorite episodes!

I really don’t understand the box problem. It was implied (at least I think it was) that picking both boxes is the “better” algorithm. Ok, perhaps there’s math that proves this? But to me it seems more important to describe exactly *how* the magical being makes his prediction. Is he looking into my brain and seeing what I personally am going to do in this situation? Or is he assuming that I’m a rational being and because I listen to podcasts like this one I will choose both boxes? Because I can’t think of a good reason why I would not choose the opaque box that will have $1 Million dollars in it. I’m very motivated to receive $1 Million dollars, no matter how “irrational” my choice might be (according to the math that I assume says “rationally I’m supposed to pick both boxes”.) – The MB seems to never be wrong, so it should know I will pick the opaque box and therefore get my $1 Million dollars. What would make the MB predict incorrectly for me – that I would *not* choose the single opaque box? Why is this choice not the right one?

For the one-boxers, I wonder how your choice and this experiment would change if the MB were penalized a significant amount of money for predicting incorrectly. Would that alter the outcome for you?

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