While the previous post bemoans the lack of simple world-changing ways to make the career path for aspiring academics more pleasant (other than bushels of money falling from the sky, of which I would approve), there is one feasible thing that everyone agrees would be good: better career counseling for Ph.D. students, both on the realistic prospects for advancement within academia, and concerning opportunities outside.
I always try to be honest with my own students about the prospects for ultimately landing a faculty job. But like most faculty members, I’m not that much help when it comes to outside opportunities, having spent practically all my life within academia. I’m happy to give advice, but you’d be crazy to take it, since I have no idea what I am talking about.
But that’s a correctable state of affairs. So: I’m hereby soliciting good, specific career advice and/or resources for students who are on the track to get a Ph.D. (or already have one) and are interested in pursuing non-academic jobs. This might be particular jobs that are Ph.D.-friendly, or websites with good information, or relevant fellowships or employment agencies, or just pointers to other resources. (For example: do you know the difference between a CV and a resume?) The more specific the better, and including useful links is best of all. General griping and expressions of bitterness should be kept in the previous thread; let’s try to be productive. And there’s no reason to limit it to physics, all fields are welcome. Advice that is useful for only a tiny number of people, but extremely useful for them, is certainly sought. We’re looking for things that have a nontrivial chance of actually helping some specific person at a future date.
Most of all it would be great to have input from people who actually got a Ph.D. and then went on to do something else. But it’s the internet, everyone can chime in.
I will take what look like the most helpful suggestions and collate them into a separate post. Spread the word, let’s get as much input from different sectors as we can.
I left academia to go into industry after my first postdoc, just to go back to academia a couple of years later. Make no mistake: while the topics that are being worked on outside of academia are generally not less interesting, it is the for-profit environment that can make your job less satisfying. The fundamental question I think is not academia/industry but rather for-profit/non-profit. If you decide to go non-profit: there are other jobs out there than being at a university. If you decide to go for-profit: get a hobby that makes you life fulfilling.
After Jon N.’s comments, i would just like to add, there are a number of jobs out there for which a physics ph.d. is useful and in some cases required well outside of academia. Think bigger about the world. BFG mentioned the energy world, which is vastly expanding, especially overseas. Medicine is also an ever-expanding field along the physics spectrum. I have a good friend who is a particle physicist for the reactor industry, another field about to bubble up. The sound reproduction industry is also another place to look, as the highest end of the equipment is pushing the boundaries of acoustic spaces. And there are many more.
What’s the point in worrying about this stuff anyway, it’s May 21st!!!
Why do all you nominally intelligent, scientifically and technically skilled people think so small? Why are you only suggesting ways to become servants and slaves of existing power structures? Why not use your intelligence to try to take over the world, control its wealth, dominate it genetically and memetically, etc? Your brain is, after all, a weapon of survival and Darwinian dominance above all. Use it for the thing it has evolved to do, and seize power from the rampantly breeding morons who threaten to hasten the failure of intelligent life in this tiny region of spacetime known as present-day planet Earth!
#54 AO makes a cogent point before veering off into the deep end.
Not a single one of you has expressed the confidence to work for yourself.
Which is why I wouldn’t hire any of you. You’re like my kids still wanting to live at home on my nickel.
Not. Happening.
That may have been off the deep end, but my experience with the modern academy is that it breeds a sheep-like, neutered, PC mentality which is ill-suited to anything but institutional slavery. Julian Assange actually considered becoming a physicist at one point, but when he saw the wretchedly servile nature of the modern scientist he changed his mind and opted for a far riskier, but also much more interesting path. I don’t see the point of pursuing a PhD in times like these anyway unless you have an extreme gift; over-specialization is the death of any species when its environment changes, and the environment is clearly changing.
NASA??? Buehler?? Anyone?
I’ve found it to be a great mix of physics, engineering, and management that fits me personally much better than anything I could have found in academia (in theory — I never went that path)
@ Gary M & AO: believe it or not, not everyone wants to “work for themselves.” I wouldn’t enjoy being an entrepreneur (nor a PI, for that matter). Plus, I have personal reasons for preferring a more stable job situation. I was thus never tempted to start my own company or get an MBA, even after watching my PI found several companies. But don’t worry: people who want that sort of path are seeking it out. I just saw one of my good friends last week, a fellow bio PhD, who’s going to business school, entering VC, and will likely be running his own firm(s) in 5-10 years. He recommends informational interviews and VC/consulting internships as ways to explore that career space.
As a separate matter, Gary, I find it interesting that you feel the need to obliquely insult all those of us who have supported ourselves (and/or our families) since we were 18. It’s really not your place to decide whether the career I choose is worth my time, is it? And last I checked, none of us had asked you for a job. Try to keep the conversation constructive, eh? 🙂
@old and dying postdoc. Maybe you should try looking up Rob Knop? He switched from academia to work for a tech company some time in his 40’s, I think. I’m kinda surprised he hasn’t poster here yet, though I guess he says his departure was bittersweet.
Well, let’s see—put your Ph.D. on hold, become a world-famous rock guitarist, then get your degree 35 years later.
58 bioephemera,
23 years, I earned my living teaching Astronomy.
17 years, I’ve earned my living working for myself.
3 times the annual income.
YMMV
One of the most fascinating ways to spend a post-PhD year outside academia is to become a Science Policy Fellow in the US Congress, State Dept., or other parts of the government. Several professional societies sponsor fellows under the umbrella of the AAAS. You go to Washington to bring scientific advice and understanding to the government, and in turn, you become aware of how science is funded, how it is used in policy, and what career options there are in the field of science policy and politics. Not enough Caltech grads take this incredible opportunity! About 1/3 of the fellows return to academia, so it’s not necessarily a one-way ticket.
http://fellowships.aaas.org/
http://www.aps.org/policy/fellowships/congressional.cfm
P.S. greatly enjoyed your talk at JPL today!
There is a cultural pressure in Physics (definitely in Theoretical Physics) to totally focus on your field through out your grad school – to do just your research and not explore the outside world. Of course, there are (good) reasons for this. However, this is quite interesting because such pressure doesn’t seem to exist in Engg schools. In Engg schools, it is perfectly ok for a top PhD student to do a summer intern at Google or D E Shaw or GE or McKinsey , etc. The summer internship is not seen, usually, as an indication that the student is somehow disinterested or planning to leave the field.
In Theoretical Physics, it is not quite that easy for a student to explore during grad school what lies outside. This sadly works against those who might eventually decide to switch careers. For one thing, it gives them a very skewed pereception of what the real world jobs might be like, and for another, they remain at a slight disadvantage compared to the Engg students who might have done internships.
The point is, it would be vastly advantageous to the field if Physics Departments across the US were more open to the PhD students doing summer internships in “real world” – just like Engg students. This would give the students a better feel for what lies outside, prevent unfortunate notions of what the real world jobs might or migh not be like, leave them better prepared for any eventual switch to a real world career.
In reading your post and some (but admittedly not all) of the comments I have come to the realization that 1) I had a far-sighted Thesis advisor and 2) you have started this discussion off at the wrong spot.
My supervisor was a very far-sighted man who had us start thinking about what we were going to do with our PH.D long before we had finished earning the doctorate. He would look at each student, evaluate their make-up, ability and desires and then would help us on a path. For the students on the purely academic stream it was a typical program of applicable courses and research. For individuals like myself, who were not as obvious a fit in the academic route he ensured we took additional courses in business and/or management. It is recognized in the private sector that folks with Ph.Ds are going to do science for some portion of their careers but they will also be running businesses as well so understanding how businesses operate and business theory were considered a complimentary part of our education. While our colleagues attended the academic conferences we were sponsored to attend industry conferences and were encouraged to make contacts. Our supervisor would attend when he could and facilitate the contacts. Because he had been doing this for a long time he had the contacts and so virtually everyone who wanted to got a private sector job offer before their thesis was complete.
So my point is to start much earlier. As a supervisor make you students spend more introspective time earlier in their careers and make plans accordingly. If you wait until after they have completed their studies to set them on the path then you, as their supervisor and mentor, have done them a disservice.
I have been in the private sector for a decade and am very happy out here.
I have taken a one year Fellowship at the US Dept of State, embedded as a Humanitarian Affairs Officer in the Bureau of Human Rights. I “pass” on all the science that comes through our Office, things such as science that is quoted in UN resolutions. I have attended a number of UN meetings on Disaster Risk Reduction, and even voted in the General Assembly for the US.
There are very very few scientists at State, and we need many more scientists working in public and foreign policy. The best way to get involved is through the AAAS Fellow program mentioned above and the APS program. The AAS also has a policy fellow every few years.
It is annoying to constantly be asked “Why are you doing THAT?” as if doing academic astronomy is the acme of what an astronomer should do. I use my science experience every day, and the intellectual challenges are excellent. I get to work with incredibly interesting and smart Foreign Service Officers. I get to participate on Task Forces when the US is facing a crisis such as in Libya or supporting Japan in the recent nuclear disaster.
Scientists and diplomats approach problems differently, and between us is a creative friction that leads to better US foreign policy and humanitarian response. You can, with an astronomy PhD, participate in helping Human Rights around the world, and many other worthy humanitarian projects at State, USAID, AAAS, USGS, FEMA, NIST, World Bank and the myriad of civil societies in DC. Academic astronomy is only one path for a fulfilling career in astronomy and science.
Nicholas Suntzeff
VP, American Astronomical Society
Jefferson Science Fellow, Bureau of Human Rights, US State Dept.
&
Texas A&M University
As a recent Physics PhD who now works on Wall St., I felt that I ought to give my $0.02:
Banks and other financial firms will always continue to hire physics PhDs. However, the work culture and the interview process is very different from what a typical grad student might be used to in a university setting. Here’s some unsolicited free advice for those who might be inclined to switch.
1. Learn how to program in C++: In a large fraction of cases, you might naturally learn programming because your research requires it. In other cases, try to take a course in computational physics/math that forces you to program.
2. Be extremely fluent with undergrad-level math: Most firms that hire quantitative PhDs are looking for people with extremely strong basic math skills who can solve problems quickly and correctly. Make sure you brush up on standard topics like calculus, linear algebra, numerical techniques, probability, statistics etc. Being able to do “order-of-magnitude” calculations will help you immensely. A typical job will *not* require you to solve a path integral or Einstein’s equations for a spacetime with multiple singularities.
3. Develop good oral/written communication skills: The industry is fast paced. Time literally *is* money. Learn how to communicate the gist of involved and complex ideas to an audience that only has a basic knowledge of the subject. 10/12 min talks at conferences like APS/AAS etc. is great practice. Develop the habit of using proper grammar and structuring your written communication — this includes emails, research notes, papers, articles etc.
4. Write a resume that fits in 1 side of an A4/letter sized paper (use at least size 10 font). There are plenty of free resume examples online.
5. I agree with an earlier comment that the best time to switch is just after your PhD. Several firms go to major campuses specifically to interview and recruit grad students.
6. Try to take 1 or 2 elementary finance courses at your university. This will give you a good introduction to the area. Note that most faculty who teach finance probably have some industry experience as well.
7. If possible, do an internship. Several firms offer full time positions to successful interns.
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I recommend sitting in lotus position and contemplating non-being.
I have read the comments and suggestions here. Most of them seem to be from successful professionals, but some are also written with a hint of the charmed career. Clearly no one believes that is the norm however I wonder if the practical aspect missing here is the messy role the real world can have on shaping and sometimes trashing carefully made plans and just how then you can adapt to that. I don’t have the answer, but I am an experienced PhD and well acquainted with that question. A comedian once said that when you come to a fork in the road you should take it. I concur with that advice.
@Gavin Polhemus
GREAT post!