One frustrating aspect of our discussion about the compatibility of science and religion was the amount of effort expended arguing about definitions, rather than substance. When I use words like “God” or “religion,” I try to use them in senses that are consistent with how they have been understood (at least in the Western world) through history, by the large majority of contemporary believers, and according to definitions as you would encounter them in a dictionary. It seems clear to me that, by those standards, religious belief typically involves various claims about things that happen in the world — for example, the virgin birth or ultimate resurrection of Jesus. Those claims can be judged by science, and are found wanting.
Some people would prefer to define “religion” so that religious beliefs entail nothing whatsoever about what happens in the world. And that’s fine; definitions are not correct or incorrect, they are simply useful or useless, where usefulness is judged by the clarity of one’s attempts at communication. Personally, I think using “religion” in that way is not very clear. Most Christians would disagree with the claim that Jesus came about because Joseph and Mary had sex and his sperm fertilized her ovum and things proceeded conventionally from there, or that Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, or that God did not create the universe. The Congregation for the Causes of Saints, whose job it is to judge whether a candidate for canonization has really performed the required number of miracles and so forth, would probably not agree that miracles don’t occur. Francis Collins, recently nominated to direct the NIH, argues that some sort of God hypothesis helps explain the values of the fundamental constants of nature, just like a good Grand Unified Theory would. These views are by no means outliers, even without delving into the more extreme varieties of Biblical literalism.
Furthermore, if a religious person really did believe that nothing ever happened in the world that couldn’t be perfectly well explained by ordinary non-religious means, I would think they would expend their argument-energy engaging with the many millions of people who believe that the virgin birth and the resurrection and the promise of an eternal afterlife and the efficacy of intercessory prayer are all actually literally true, rather than with a handful of atheist bloggers with whom they agree about everything that happens in the world. But it’s a free country, and people are welcome to define words as they like, and argue with whom they wish.
But there was also a more interesting and substantive issue lurking below the surface. I focused in that post on the meaning of “religion,” but did allude to the fact that defenders of Non-Overlapping Magisteria often misrepresent “science” as well. And this, I think, is not just a matter of definitions: we can more or less agree on what “science” means, and still disagree on what questions it has the power to answer. So that’s an issue worth examining more carefully: what does science actually have the power to do?
I can think of one popular but very bad strategy for answering this question: first, attempt to distill the essence of “science” down to some punchy motto, and then ask what questions fall under the purview of that motto. At various points throughout history, popular mottos of choice might have been “the Baconian scientific method” or “logical positivism” or “Popperian falsificationism” or “methodological naturalism.” But this tactic always leads to trouble. Science is a messy human endeavor, notoriously hard to boil down to cut-and-dried procedures. A much better strategy, I think, is to consider specific examples, figure out what kinds of questions science can reasonably address, and compare those to the questions in which we’re interested.
Here is my favorite example question. Alpha Centauri A is a G-type star a little over four light years away. Now pick some very particular moment one billion years ago, and zoom in to the precise center of the star. Protons and electrons are colliding with each other all the time. Consider the collision of two electrons nearest to that exact time and that precise point in space. Now let’s ask: was momentum conserved in that collision? Or, to make it slightly more empirical, was the magnitude of the total momentum after the collision within one percent of the magnitude of the total momentum before the collision?
This isn’t supposed to be a trick question; I don’t have any special knowledge or theories about the interior of Alpha Centauri that you don’t have. The scientific answer to this question is: of course, the momentum was conserved. Conservation of momentum is a principle of science that has been tested to very high accuracy by all sorts of experiments, we have every reason to believe it held true in that particular collision, and absolutely no reason to doubt it; therefore, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that momentum was conserved.
A stickler might argue, well, you shouldn’t be so sure. You didn’t observe that particular event, after all, and more importantly there’s no conceivable way that you could collect data at the present time that would answer the question one way or the other. Science is an empirical endeavor, and should remain silent about things for which no empirical adjudication is possible.
But that’s completely crazy. That’s not how science works. Of course we can say that momentum was conserved. Indeed, if anyone were to take the logic of the previous paragraph seriously, science would be a completely worthless endeavor, because we could never make any statements about the future. Predictions would be impossible, because they haven’t happened yet, so we don’t have any data about them, so science would have to be silent.
All that is completely mixed-up, because science does not proceed phenomenon by phenomenon. Science constructs theories, and then compares them to empirically-collected data, and decides which theories provide better fits to the data. The definition of “better” is notoriously slippery in this case, but one thing is clear: if two theories make the same kinds of predictions for observable phenomena, but one is much simpler, we’re always going to prefer the simpler one. The definition of theory is also occasionally troublesome, but the humble language shouldn’t obscure the potential reach of the idea: whether we call them theories, models, hypotheses, or what have you, science passes judgment on ideas about how the world works.
And that’s the crucial point. Science doesn’t do a bunch of experiments concerning colliding objects, and say “momentum was conserved in that collision, and in that one, and in that one,” and stop there. It does those experiments, and then it also proposes frameworks for understanding how the world works, and then it compares those theoretical frameworks to that experimental data, and — if the data and theories seem good enough — passes judgment. The judgments are necessarily tentative — one should always be open to the possibility of better theories or surprising new data — but are no less useful for that.
Furthermore, these theoretical frameworks come along with appropriate domains of validity, depending both on the kinds of experimental data we have available and on the theoretical framework itself. At the low energies available to us in laboratory experiments, we are very confident that baryon number (the total number of quarks minus antiquarks) is conserved in every collision. But we don’t necessarily extend that to arbitrarily high energies, because it’s easy to think of perfectly sensible extensions of our current theoretical understanding in which baryon number might very well be violated — indeed, it’s extremely likely, since there are a lot more quarks than antiquarks in the observable universe. In contrast, we believe with high confidence that electric charge is conserved at arbitrarily high energies. That’s because the theoretical underpinnings of charge conservation are a lot more robust and inflexible than those of baryon-number conservation. A good theoretical framework can be extremely unforgiving and have tremendous scope, even if we’ve only tested it over a blink of cosmic time here on our tiny speck of a planet.
The same logic applies, for example, to the highly contentious case of the multiverse. The multiverse isn’t, by itself, a theory; it’s a prediction of a certain class of theories. If the idea were simply “Hey, we don’t know what happens outside our observable universe, so maybe all sorts of crazy things happen,” it would be laughably uninteresting. By scientific standards, it would fall woefully short. But the point is that various theoretical attempts to explain phenomena that we directly observe right in front of us — like gravity, and quantum field theory — lead us to predict that our universe should be one of many, and subsequently suggest that we take that situation seriously when we talk about the “naturalness” of various features of our local environment. The point, at the moment, is not whether there really is or is not a multiverse; it’s that the way we think about it and reach conclusions about its plausibility is through exactly the same kind of scientific reasoning we’ve been using for a long time now. Science doesn’t pass judgment on phenomena; it passes judgment on theories.
The reason why we can be confident that momentum was conserved during that particular collision a billion years ago is that science has concluded (beyond reasonable doubt, although not with metaphysical certitude) that the best framework for understanding the world is one in which momentum is conserved in all collisions. It’s certainly possible that this particular collision was an exception; but a framework in which that were true would necessarily be more complicated, without providing any better explanation for the data we do have. We’re comparing two theories: one in which momentum is always conserved, and one in which it occasionally isn’t, including a billion years ago at the center of Alpha Centauri. Science is well equipped to carry out this comparison, and the first theory wins hands-down.
Now let’s turn to a closely analogous question. There is some historical evidence that, about two thousand years ago in Galilee, a person named Jesus was born to a woman named Mary, and later grew up to be a messianic leader and was eventually crucified by the Romans. (Unruly bloke, by the way — tended to be pretty doctrinaire about the number of paths to salvation, and prone to throwing moneychangers out of temples. Not very “accommodating,” if you will.) The question is: how did Mary get pregnant?
One approach would be to say: we just don’t know. We weren’t there, don’t have any reliable data, etc. Should just be quiet.
The scientific approach is very different. We have two theories. One theory is that Mary was a virgin; she had never had sex before becoming pregnant, or encountered sperm in any way. Her pregnancy was a miraculous event, carried out through the intervention of the Holy Ghost, a spiritual manifestation of a triune God. The other theory is that Mary got pregnant through relatively conventional channels, with the help of (one presumes) her husband. According to this theory, claims to the contrary in early (although not contemporary) literature are, simply, erroneous.
There’s no question that these two theories can be judged scientifically. One is conceptually very simple; all it requires is that some ancient texts be mistaken, which we know happens all the time, even with texts that are considerably less ancient and considerably better corroborated. The other is conceptually horrible; it posits an isolated and unpredictable deviation from otherwise universal rules, and invokes a set of vaguely-defined spiritual categories along the way. By all of the standards that scientists have used for hundreds of years, the answer is clear: the sex-and-lies theory is enormously more compelling than the virgin-birth theory.
The same thing is true for various other sorts of miraculous events, or claims for the immortality of the soul, or a divine hand in guiding the evolution of the universe and/or life. These phenomena only make sense within a certain broad framework for understanding how the world works. And that framework can be judged against others in which there are no miracles etc. And, without fail, the scientific judgment comes down in favor of a strictly non-miraculous, non-supernatural view of the universe.
That’s what’s really meant by my claim that science and religion are incompatible. I was referring to the Congregation-for-the-Causes-of-the-Saints interpretation of religion, which entails a variety of claims about things that actually happen in the world; not the it’s-all-in-our-hearts interpretation, where religion makes no such claims. (I have no interest in arguing at this point in time over which interpretation is “right.”) When religion, or anything else, makes claims about things that happen in the world, those claims can in principle be judged by the methods of science. That’s all.
Well, of course, there is one more thing: the judgment has been made, and views that step outside the boundaries of strictly natural explanation come up short. By “natural” I simply mean the view in which everything that happens can be explained in terms of a physical world obeying unambiguous rules, never disturbed by whimsical supernatural interventions from outside nature itself. The preference for a natural explanation is not an a priori assumption made by science; it’s a conclusion of the scientific method. We know enough about the workings of the world to compare two competing big-picture theoretical frameworks: a purely naturalistic one, versus one that incorporates some sort of supernatural component. To explain what we actually see, there’s no question that the naturalistic approach is simply a more compelling fit to the observations.
Could science, through its strategy of judging hypotheses on the basis of comparison with empirical data, ever move beyond naturalism to conclude that some sort of supernatural influence was a necessary feature of explaining what happens in the world? Sure; why not? If supernatural phenomena really did exist, and really did influence things that happened in the world, science would do its best to figure that out.
It’s true that, given the current state of data and scientific theorizing, the vast preponderance of evidence comes down in favor of understanding the world on purely natural terms. But that’s not to say that the situation could not, at least in principle, change. Science adapts to reality, however it presents itself. At the dawn of the 20th century, it would have been hard to find a more firmly accepted pillar of physics than the principle of determinism: the future can, in principle, be predicted from the present state. The experiments that led us to invent quantum mechanics changed all that. Moving from a theory in which the present uniquely determines the future to one where predictions are necessarily probabilistic in nature is an incredible seismic shift in our deep picture of reality. But science made the switch with impressive rapidity, because that’s what the data demanded. Some stubborn folk tried to recover determinism at a deeper level by inventing more clever theories — which is exactly what they should have done. But (to make a complicated story simple) they didn’t succeed, and scientists learned to deal.
It’s not hard to imagine a similar hypothetical scenario playing itself out for the case of supernatural influences. Scientists do experiments that reveal anomalies that can’t be explained by current theories. (These could be subtle things at a microscopic level, or relatively blatant manifestations of angels with wings and flaming swords.) They struggle to come up with new theories that fit the data within the reigning naturalist paradigm, but they don’t succeed. Eventually, they agree that the most compelling and economical theory is one with two parts: a natural part, based on unyielding rules, with a certain well-defined range of applicability, and a supernatural one, for which no rules can be found.
Of course, that phase of understanding might be a temporary one, depending on the future progress of theory and experiment. That’s perfectly okay; scientific understanding is necessarily tentative. In the mid-19th century, before belief in atoms had caught on among physicists, the laws of thermodynamics were thought to be separate, autonomous rules, in addition to the crisp Newtonian laws governing particles. Eventually, through Maxwell and Boltzmann and the other pioneers of kinetic theory, we learned better, and figured out how thermodynamic behavior could be subsumed into the Newtonian paradigm through statistical mechanics. One of the nice things about science is that it’s hard to predict its future course. Likewise, the need for a supernatural component in the best scientific understanding of the universe might evaporate — or it might not. Science doesn’t assume things from the start; it tries to deal with reality as it presents itself, however that may be.
This is where talk of “methodological naturalism” goes astray. Paul Kurtz defines it as the idea that “all hypotheses and events are to be explained and tested by reference to natural causes and events.” That “explained and tested” is an innocent-looking mistake. Science tests things empirically, which is to say by reference to observable events; but it doesn’t have to explain things as by reference to natural causes and events. Science explains what it sees the best way it can — why would it do otherwise? The important thing is to account for the data in the simplest and most useful way possible.
There’s no obstacle in principle to imagining that the normal progress of science could one day conclude that the invocation of a supernatural component was the best way of understanding the universe. Indeed, this scenario is basically the hope of most proponents of Intelligent Design. The point is not that this couldn’t possibly happen — it’s that it hasn’t happened in our actual world. In the real world, by far the most compelling theoretical framework consistent with the data is one in which everything that happens is perfectly accounted for by natural phenomena. No virgin human births, no coming back after being dead for three days, no afterlife in Heaven, no supernatural tinkering with the course of evolution. You can define “religion” however you like, but you can’t deny the power of science to reach far-reaching conclusions about how reality works.
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@Tulse [103]
> There is no mechanism for, and thus no examples in nature of, females with two like chromosomes (as humans have) producing male offspring.
Some people have unusual combinations of chromosomes, such as XXY or XYY, although I’m not sure if any such anomalous set could be owned by a fertile female:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system
That said, I don’t believe in the virgin birth of Christ, which seems to me more likely to have been an early addition to Christianity to make it more inviting to pagans some of whose Gods were supposedly born of a virgin.
I apologize for posting without reading all of the previous comments. I will read them all when I have more time. Right now, I’d just like to share this criticism of Sean Carroll’s piece and invite comments and criticisms:
http://specterofreason.blogspot.com/2009/07/discovery-demonstration-and-naturalism.html
Bryson,
It explains the origin of things because God is the end of all “WHYs”. When Moses asked God about his true identity, God replied “I am what I am” and exactly that moment any further question loses its meaning. The chain of sequential WHYs breaks there.
You can’t ask what was before God or outside God. The only answer is again God. And you can’t ask who is God or why there is a God.
The answer is “I am what I am” and “I am because I am”.
With science on the contrary there will always be another “WHY” waiting for you at the corner.
Actually you _can_, obviously, ask those questions about a god. It’s just that people tend to stone you because they don’t have any good answers.
“When Moses asked God about his true identity, God replied “I am what I am” and exactly that moment any further question loses its meaning. ”
Apparently then Popeye is god…
Don’t be naive.
I’m not saying that this conversation really happened. It didn’t happen if you like; it’s not my point. I’m just trying to say that you can talk about the existence and the notion of God using only theological terms and within the context of the discipline of theology. Physics has nothing to say about it.
Sean’s right about this: regarding the causes and consequences of events about which we have no information, it is most reasonable to believe that they are identical with the causes and consequences of equivalent events, provided that we have never known these to be different in any case. But that principle has no application to something like the virgin birth, because it’s not the case that we have no information about the causes and consequences of the birth of Jesus Christ. We have the testimony of the Gospels to which the Spirit bears witness. Sean’s “hypothetical scenario” has already happened.
I realize that atheist scientists of an empiricist bent won’t recognize the authority of spiritual witness, because they refuse to be persuaded by anything but induction and deduction from “sense data.” But what I want to say to these scientists is that this very refusal is authorized by a spiritual witness: the light of freedom glimmers in the gesture which denies the source of the light.
Giotis:
You seem to have missed the point altogether. Your declaration that God is the end of why-questions is pure stipulation. Why can’t we stipulate instead that the big bang, or the existence of the multiverse as a whole, is the end of why-questions? You’re trying to end the argument by saying, “I’m right because I’m right”. But my point was that any such stipulation is empty and unconvincing– all the more so in the case of a hypothesis like ‘God’, whose meaning is not clear, specific or informative (unlike the big bang or the multiverse).
Jason Streitfeld referenced a post on another site that was critical of the short essay by Sean Carroll above. In order to understand the premise of the referenced post, here is my interpretation.
The post claims it is wrong to distinguish between the supernatural and the natural. If it exists, outside our universe, it is natural if it is demonstrable. This assumes there are means to demonstrate the existence of any entities, whether intelligent or not outside our universe, but if there were the entities are natural. So the distinction between natural and supernatural is not a valid one. If it exists beyond our universe and is not demonstrable, then it is not the realm of science.
I am not saying that is what the post said, only asking for other’s interpretation of what was said and is similar.
http://specterofreason.blogspot.com/2009/07/discovery-demonstration-and-naturalism.html
And then the originator of the post goes on to say that to make the distinction between natural and supernatural is a dangerous idea because it gives those who make the distinction, credence. The post says that supernaturalism is political action and neither a scientific or philosophical point of view.
“It is a political strategy to corrupt our understanding of the relationship between knowledge and action, and our understanding of science and nature should not be compromised by it”
So I have a question if my interpretation is correct, is this distinction really meaningful and is not this post just a political statement making a point of view doctrine.
This is a separate question but related. Are the willful actions of an intelligent agent subject to the same scientific scrutiny as the laws of nature are? Now I understand that willful actions often follow patterns but one time events due to a willful action may not. Would the anomalies that Sean referred to be subject to scientific investigation if these willful actions were one off events? So in other words are there things within our universe that are not demonstrable and as such are not subject to the realm of science.
Also if something exists outside our universe and is not demonstrable and thus it is not in the realm of science, can we speculate on it? Or how do we approach the consideration of such a thing? Is it by fiat, out of bounds. What would this do to the multiverse hypothesis?
“Are the willful actions of an intelligent agent subject to the same scientific scrutiny as the laws of nature are?”
We call that discipline “psychology”.
“Also if something exists outside our universe and is not demonstrable and thus it is not in the realm of science, can we speculate on it? ”
Of course we can — apparently such ineffable entities really hate gay sex. And shellfish.
Bryson,
No you can’t do that because then you are within the realm of the physical reality and thus you must give a physical explanation of your claim or stipulation.
Only with a transcendental entity outside the physical reality you can do that and since science can’t give an answer to people’s “WHYs”, they have every right to make any hypothesis they like and science has nothing to say about it.
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Giotis, I often hear such terms as “transcendental”, “outside the physical reality” etc. But aren’t they colorful ways of saying “I don’t know”?
I can think of a system where there is a “god”. Think of a novel. The world of the novel is filled with characters who act according to the whim of their “god”, the author. The characters may or may not be aware of their “god”, the author, depending on the whim of the “god”. Sure this “god” is outside the physical reality of the novel, he/she is a transcendental entity; but that is so only as long as the characters consider only their “world”, the novel as the universe.
My main point is that there are many people, including some not so religious people, who hold a parallel notion of the universe. However, to me at least, it seems clear that the universe has to be taken to mean all that there is. So, in the above example the universe is not just the world of the novel but also includes the author and the world he/she exists in and so on.
With such a notion, which is the most meaningful among several choices, I don’t see what you mean by the terms such as “outside the physical reality”. Would you care to explain. You may also comment on the notion of the universe.
I think Jason Streitfeld has written a very good piece at http://specterofreason.blogspot.com/2009/07/discovery-demonstration-and-naturalism.html .
I tend to agree with most of his views.
P,
No I can’t tell you. I can only direct you to the discipline of theology for an answer to your question. Through the centuries, thousands and thousands of pages have been written to answer such questions. This supports my point that you can talk about God using only theological terms.
Regarding the question for the compatibility between physics and the notion of God. The answer is that the question doesn’t have a meaning.
If a scientist is asked for his opinion on the notion and existence of God, in my opinion he should simply say ‘No comment’. This notion is completely unknown to me and I have nothing to say about it. I can only tell you about the results of my experiments and about the theories I have constructed, which by definition are referring to the physical reality as I understand it. That’s it.
“If a scientist is asked for his opinion on the notion and existence of God, in my opinion he should simply say ‘No comment’.”
Exactly my point. The question is meaningless and the right answer for anyone (there is nothing inherently different between a scientist and someone else) is, as you say, “No comments”. But, unfortunately, most religions (Buddhism, for example is a major exception) are based completely on the presumption that the question is completely meaningful and that it has an answer. From there on thousands and thousands of pages have been written (several hundreds are taken by “Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy” itself) to give different notions of god and trying to answer other such meaningless questions, quite often tying themselves in knots.
“I can only tell you about the results of my experiments and about the theories I have constructed, which by definition are referring to the physical reality as I understand it.”
Please tell me. And what, according to you, constitutes the physical reality?
“No I can’t tell you. I can only direct you to the discipline of theology for an answer to your question.”
I find this quite amusing given one of your earlier comments:
#80: “I don’t have to read anything. What I’ve written holds perfectly well if you read it carefully and you can’t say anything to disprove it.”
I wonder what is preventing you from arguing by the same standards that you expect of others. Moreover, there you were asked to look up (after briefly explaining the gist of the idea) a specific argument that is available even on wikipedia while you direct me to a whole discipline in which “thousands and thousands of pages have been written”.
P,
Let’s leave it here. I have nothing else to add and I think I’ve made my point clear. Anyone can judge for himself.
As for the quotation:
“I don’t have to read anything. What I’ve written holds perfectly well if you read it carefully and you can’t say anything to disprove it.”
I regret saying that. I meant it in a different way than it sounds. I was referring to the consistency of my argument.
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I tend to define the scientific process as “The practice of never making the same mistake twice.”
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All of them.
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It saddens me that no one here knows how to deal with trolls. A “troll” is a person who enters a given social community and adamantly and inflexibly espouses opinions and methodologies that are antithetical to that community. For example, a troll on a New England Patriots website might say, “Tom Brady sucks”, and when challenged with any number of facts or statistics, will merely maintain his position and make no attempt to defend himself or refute the arguments offered. Giotis is on a science website and is more or less saying “Science sucks”. The only way to win the argument is to not argue.
As for this conversation, I’m thrilled with the level of discourse. Sean’s original post is a deep and provocative work, and (troublemakers notwithstanding) the discussion has been quite enlightening. I don’t have much to add except, keep it up, and ignore the trolls.
Addendum: The second rule of trolling is to deny that you’re trolling.
There are many, many areas where science and religion overlap: Is mental illness orginic or demonic possession? Is disease a pathology or result of breaking religious rules? Are eclipses alignments of bodies or a diety’s warning? Science has no way to answer these questions without just asking more questions. Only religion can give an answer of absolute certainty and moral clarity.
Oh, except how to get the demons out, which rules were broken and which deity it is that is giving the warning and why.